Apologetics · CEC · Philosophy

Who is right?

Who is right? Thats the question religion in general tries to answer. Whether it is Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or some other religion, the ultimate question = veritas?

Pilate asked that question of Jesus, and man has been asking that question since the beginning. Both religion and philosophy has tried to answer the question, what is truth, what is real. Even when narrowed down to one specific religion – i.e. Christianity – there are more questions then answers. Even in this blog, where Pre-destination and Purgatory have been questioned, no “true” truth has been discovered, for every answer is biased, or based upon personal beliefs or feelings… no offense of course!

Think of Christianity:

Jesus, born, lived, died, rose again –

Acts, the Chursh is born, the Community is established, the Sacraments are consumated by the Apostles

Seven Ecumenical Councils, Christology established, the Apostles and Nicene Creed established, the Chalcedon variation.

1054, East and West split – political and religious

16th Century, Protestant Reformation/Rebellion

18/19th Centuries, Great Awakening I & II, the Rapture

20th Century, Pentecostalism, Charismatic Movement, Liberation Theology, Continuing Movement, Convergence  Movement

21st Century… who knows!

In all of this, you have splits, mergers, miracles, heresies, etc. But what is truth? Roman Catholics say one thing, Eastern Orthodox, though close, say another. Protestants are so confused they have over a thousand individual groups. The Coninuing Movement like Anglicanism, but reject the Church of England, the Convergance Movement wants to be Catholic and Orthodox, yet reject Rome and “Constantinople” – now, rejects is a strong word, rather, wishes to be independent yet in communion with.

In John 17, Christ prays that we all may be one, yet some where, we have failed the purpose of Christ, for Christ came to bring the people of God together, not to scatter the sheep. Is it because of disorder, or is it because we have lsot focus of the love of God? Yes, but yet, it goes further then that. Proverbs says that God knows the ways of man, and those ways are not His ways. Solomon goes as far as saying that all of man’s plans and desires are vanity. However, man has invaded the Body of Christ. Isaiah does say that man will see visions and dream dreams, yet, he does not offer the answer to their interpretation, and sometimes visions are just visions, and dreams are just dreams, not prophecy, but windows into our own soul. Sometimes we will see ourselves in the arms of Jesus, high and lifted up, in His comfort, it does not mean we should create a theology around it. Sometimes God tells someone that he is going to give you a Mercedes, yet, that does not mean you should base you faith upon whether or not it happens. Sometimes we should clap our hands, sometimes we should bow in silence for hours, neither is perfect, and neither is superior, only  right in their own time. Sometimes, because of pride or because of our upbringing, we judge others who worship God, yet, though we judge, it does not make the others actions either right or wrong. Sometimes God gives us a glimpse of heaven, or of the Second Coming of Christ, however, it does not mean we should focus on the future or the hear after.

Christ said what you have done for the least of these, you have done for me. Clothing the naked, feeding the poor, taking care of the sick, protecting the widow and the orphan… that was Christ’s message. Not hell fire and brimstone, not what waits for us when we die -whether its Heaven or Purgatory – those are selfish and vain attempts to understand the un-understandable, and they are selfish. Christ wishes for us to be selfless, like Mother Theresa and others… like Christ was. Instead of focusing on ourselves, focus on others – everyone else is what matter. WWJD? Simple, He would serve, He would was your feet, he would heal your diseases. Ask yourself, why do you pray, why do you worship? Is it for Him and others, or is it for yourself? Why do you carry an offense? IS it for Him and others, or is it for yourself? Why do you “serve” God, for you? OR is it for Him and others? Why do you judge others, or correct others… for you? Or for Him and others?

I see the troubles in my own life, as well as others. I see the troubles in denominations, and “non”-denominations, and the one chord that strikes true.. yes, truth, is selfishness. Whether its our own sin, or other’s sins, there is always a focus on the sin, not the healing. Oh, well say we tried to help the healing process, but is that really true, or do we always have our own agenda? Did the Pope and the other Patriarchs try to heal the divide in 1054? OR did they have their own agenda? Did Luther truly try ot heal? Did Calvin? When we see a child “ruined” by a Roman Catholic priest, do we try to heal, or gain money… for I suppose money heals all wounds. Do we try to heal both the male/female and the priest? OR do we focus on the abused? When a man or woman is leadership fails, do we try to fix only the ship, or do we try to fix both the ship and the captain? OR, do we just throw the captain overboard… whether in the name of love and forgiveness, or in the name of righteousness?

This brings me back to a discussion between myself and my priest – aka. Big Bro – who condemned Judas? Did Christ condemn him, or did he condemn himself? It always easier to blame others – i.e. The Pope blamed the East, the Patriarchs blamed the West; Luther blamed Rome, Rome blamed Luther, yet, Christ said remove the log in your own eye before you even bring attention to the speck in your brothers eye. Yes, men fail, we all do, and if one man is sinning, we all are. If we are hurt, I promise you the one “doing” the hurting is hurting as well, and both parties are responsible for the healing, whether its two groups, or two men, or one man against a group, both parties are equally responsible.

I say this for many reasons, I have seen it on many levels. Both caused by me, and felt by me, as well as seen by me. MY denomination – the International Communion of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (http://www.iccec.org http://www.cechome.org) – has suffered. Just this week, we lost a beloved bishop in Africa, the first one we consecrated there, and his mission, his life, was all about bringing the whole continent of Africa to the truth of Christ, not some agenda, not some ideology, but a relationship with who Christ is. Sometimes though, we can get caught up in problems, in pain, in discomfort, in, as our local bishop mentioned, suffering, and instead of looking within ourselves, we blame others.

We have many examples, jsut look in the phone book of your local town – how many Baptist churches are there? Most likely they all have their roots in First Baptist. Catholics are not immune, Roman, Old, etc; Anglican too. Even Convergence Churches share in the splitting – CEC, CEEC, CCC, CCR, CCC #2, etc etc… The question is why? Is it because God gives us all different visions and dreams… unlikey, for logically Christ would give us all the same vision, for He prays that we all may be one. More likely it is because someone has taken an offense, harbored unforgiveness… yes, that wondrous word, and gone somewhere else, or had a new idea.

One can say he forgives, but what does that mean? Forgiveness means sacrifice and release, it means loving when you are unloved, it means blessing when you are not being blessed. It means staying in the family, evn when the family seems to turn against you, for, as the question states, who is right? Does God give a vision that cannot be fulfilled? I seriously doubt it, for God only speaks truth. Does forgiveness negate the hurt, no, of course not, but it channels it correctly, and instead of breeding judgment, it breeds healing and blessing. Instead of confusion and chaos, it breeds order.

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3 thoughts on “Who is right?

  1. 1. In John 17, Christ prays that we all may be one, yet some where, we have failed the purpose of Christ, for Christ came to bring the people of God together, not to scatter the sheep.

    ~ We should be as a flock and stay together. There is safety, strength, and solidarity in numbers.

    2. Sometimes, because of pride or because of our upbringing, we judge others who worship God, yet, though we judge, it does not make the others actions either right or wrong.

    ~ The only wrong doing is judging a person. Perhaps they do not worship God the same way we do, yet who are we to say we have the answers. For to judge someone’s relationship is to play God himself. It’s called a personal relationship with God for a reason! And perhaps we should be more focused on our relationship with God than on another’s.

    3. Christ said what you have done for the least of these, you have done for me. Clothing the naked, feeding the poor, taking care of the sick, protecting the widow and the orphan… that was Christ’s message. Not hell fire and brimstone, not what waits for us when we die -whether its Heaven or Purgatory – those are selfish and vain attempts to understand the un-understandable, and they are selfish.

    ~ Christ saved us spiritually, should we not attempt to save others materially. What are materials to us when we have a heavenly home awaiting us? We cannot to what Christ did to relieve our suffering, but we can relieve anothers, as was Christ’s wish: LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. And I personally believe we should teach people about hell and what will become of you if you deny Christ. But it should be more about the eternal separation from our father than that of hell fire and brimstone. Yes, that’s just as real as anything in hell. But the worst pain is knowing that you can never rejoice in the Father. Not the pain of flesh.

    4. WWJD? Simple, He would serve, He would was your feet, he would heal your diseases. Ask yourself, why do you pray, why do you worship? Is it for Him and others, or is it for yourself? Why do you carry an offense? IS it for Him and others, or is it for yourself? Why do you “serve” God, for you? OR is it for Him and others? Why do you judge others, or correct others… for you? Or for Him and others?

    ~ So many times we focus on our appearance to our church. We condemn others so that we may feel more righteous in our own hearts. Spend more time helping others and bringing them closer to God and you will become closer and grow in the Spirit more from that. A good deed done with boasting is no good deed at all.

    5. I see the troubles in my own life, as well as others. I see the troubles in denominations, and “non”-denominations, and the one chord that strikes true.. yes, truth, is selfishness. Whether its our own sin, or other’s sins, there is always a focus on the sin, not the healing. Oh, well say we tried to help the healing process, but is that really true, or do we always have our own agenda?

    ~ People focus on other’s sins and failures because they cannot handle their own. It is a disease, this having to be better than another person. People feel the need to hurt and belittle others in their church when they should be doing what God has commanded them to do, help others grow in Him, not tear them down when they make a mistake. For ALL fall short of the glory of God….somehow we’ve forgotten that.

    6. Do we try to heal both the male/female and the priest? OR do we focus on the abused? When a man or woman is leadership fails, do we try to fix only the ship, or do we try to fix both the ship and the captain? OR, do we just throw the captain overboard… whether in the name of love and forgiveness, or in the name of righteousness?

    ~ The time for a captain or crew for that matter to go down with a ship is far too antiquated. You don’t desert your leaders or your flock because they are not perfect. Did god abandon us after our fall in Eden? Did Christ give up and refuse to be our Savior when we tortured him to his death? NO!!! So who are we to abandon those who need us most I ask? If He did not…nor shall we. Scrape the barnacles off, swab the deck, patch the frame and put in some new sails. Teach that captain to sail to other shores… And away from the ones that cause him grief. Sail to a New World, with a new life. For Christ washes us white as snow, and forgets all our transgressions. Should we not be like Christ and forget one another’s?

    7. This brings me back to a discussion between myself and my priest – aka. Big Bro – who condemned Judas? Did Christ condemn him, or did he condemn himself?

    ~ Christ did not condemn, as it was not His divine nature. And Judas is only human and is destined to fall short of perfection. Neither Jesus, nor he himself condemned him. WE DID! We see Judas as a betrayer, a snake and a coward. But it was his destiny to betray our Lord. For how else would Christ have died? Judas played the part God meant for him to play. With his betrayal, Christ was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. But with that comes His greatest gift: Our Salvation. Without Judas, where would we be?

    8. Yes, men fail, we all do, and if one man is sinning, we all are. If we are hurt, I promise you the one “doing” the hurting is hurting as well, and both parties are responsible for the healing, whether its two groups, or two men, or one man against a group, both parties are equally responsible.

    <b.~ If you have one diseased sheep in your flock, and do nothing to tend to its ailments, what do you suppose will happen to the other sheep in your flock? They catch that same problem do they not? A Shepard is to tend to his flock, to keep them safe, secure, and free from sickness. A doctor is expected to tend to his patient as well. He gives his patient medicine, and the patient heals. But if the doctor does nothing, his patient dies. But the patient must accept the assistance as well. It takes both…the Shepard and his lamb…a doctor and his patient, to cure the sickness so it doesn’t spread to others in the congregation.

    9. The question is why? Is it because God gives us all different visions and dreams… unlikey, for logically Christ would give us all the same vision, for He prays that we all may be one. More likely it is because someone has taken an offense, harbored unforgiveness… yes, that wondrous word, and gone somewhere else, or had a new idea.

    ~ God gives us all the same visions, but we as humans are unique, (as God himself made us so), and therefore will always have a unique vision from that of our brethren. That is not to say that one is right, and the other wrong. Both have wrong and right in them. Because of our life experiences and who we are, we interpret the same dream in a million different ways from another. God’s vision is not wrong at all.. just parts of ours don’t fit His divine design. Just because we want it so badly, does not mean God meant it for us.

    10. One can say he forgives, but what does that mean? Forgiveness means sacrifice and release, it means loving when you are unloved, it means blessing when you are not being blessed. It means staying in the family, even when the family seems to turn against you, for, as the question states, who is right? Does God give a vision that cannot be fulfilled? I seriously doubt it, for God only speaks truth. Does forgiveness negate the hurt, no, of course not, but it channels it correctly, and instead of breeding judgment, it breeds healing and blessing. Instead of confusion and chaos, it breeds order.

    ~ Just because someone in a church has failed and fallen short, no matter how many times, this does not mean you are no longer obligated to help them back up. There’s not a limit on how many times one can be forgiven. You may not agree with their life, but that doesn’t mean you should stop praying for and guiding them. In all actuality, you should pray more, and try harder. Again, if Christ and God can forgive continually, and love the same, should we not aspire to be like Him? Is that not part of the idea of being more like Christ?

  2. Hi

    This may interest you.
    Jesus did not die on Cross. Please don’t mind. In my opinion he survived death on Cross, as he promised to show sign of Jonah. And Jonah entered the belly of fish alive, remained alive in the belly of the fish and came out alive from the belly of the fish. Similarly Jesus entered the tomb where he was laid after he was delivered from the Cross, in a precarious condition but nevertheless alive. Jesus remained alive in the tomb and came out of it alive. Since he never died on the Cross, there is no question of his resurrection from the dead. This has been proved by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 from several arguments from the Quran, NTBible and the medical and the history.
    Second Coming has already taken place in the form of the PromisedMessiah1835-1908 as was prophesised in the scriptures.
    Kindly visit my blogsite for your comments and/or discussions on the posts/pages there if you like. Differing opinions are also welcome.
    I love Jesus, Mary and Muhammad.
    Thanks
    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  3. “Instead of focusing on ourselves, focus on others – everyone else is what matter. WWJD? Simple, He would serve, He would was your feet, he would heal your diseases. Ask yourself, why do you pray, why do you worship? Is it for Him and others, or is it for yourself? Why do you carry an offense? IS it for Him and others, or is it for yourself? Why do you “serve” God, for you? OR is it for Him and others? Why do you judge others, or correct others… for you? Or for Him and others?”

    I disagree that everyone else is what matters – God is the only thing that matters. Yes Jesus came to serve and to love us and teach us how to be with one another, but his focus was on doing those things for God not for the sake of serving others. Serving God also means confessing our wrongs and doing our best to make them right…the word says – ‘’When a man or woman wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the LORD, that person is guilty and must confess the sin he has committed. He must make full restitution for his wrong, add one fifth to it and give it all to the person he has wronged.’ Numbers 5:7 Full restitution is not determined solely by man. It’s a redeeming in the spiritual realm – are you forgiven – yeah, but that’s not the issue. Man needs to know that your life will be different because you have confessed your sin and moved on and part of that moving on is restitution. Confess it and then recover what you have done by making things right and it’s different for each sin we commit – especially those against one another.

    “When a man or woman is leadership fails, do we try to fix only the ship, or do we try to fix both the ship and the captain? OR, do we just throw the captain overboard… whether in the name of love and forgiveness, or in the name of righteousness?”

    The word also says to restore a man gently…which can mean throwing him overboard if he’s not truly repentant and willing to do those things that the authority requires of him to be restored (and cause restitution as mentioned above). In the case of the Roman priest, they were covered for many years and how many victims do you think there were because of that covering. I agree there is a time for private correction, however, when those around us are affected greatly by our sin, and the life that is affecting them doesn’t change – there’s a time for helping them hit rock bottom…and I for one believe that can include public confession – your dad believed in public confession – I was there for one of his public sessions…so don’t come back at me on that one.

    “If we are hurt, I promise you the one “doing” the hurting is hurting as well, and both parties are responsible for the healing, whether its two groups, or two men”
    Oh my don’t even get me started…just re-read your statement here.

    “Forgiveness means sacrifice and release, it means loving when you are unloved, it means blessing when you are not being blessed.”
    I agree that forgiveness means these things – but God does not call us to continuously subject ourselves to abuse in his name. There comes a time in situations that require forgiveness where enough is enough and it’s time for one party to move on with other things and the vision God gave them is not negated, its just carried out thru different means. With God all things are possible and that includes fulfillment of visions in another way than we thought it was going to happen.

    Great thoughts – you’re definitely provoking…

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